Curse

Fried Tech · Jan 07, 2008, 06:37 PM // 18:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by -Sonata-

.
I'd also like to mention what someone else posted about Anet already doing Legal RMT with skill packs. While on the surface that would appear to be correct, except you're not actually buying the skills. You're buying the service to access those skills. Just as I purchased EoTN through the store; I didn't physically buy the towns, areas, items, skills, hero's, and so on. All I've paid for is the access and service to those areas. I'd compare it to buying an additional movie package on my cable, like Shotime, or HBO. I'm not buying the actual stations for posession. All I've bought, or paid for, is the service to access them. This is why RMT services for buying gold is such a dangerous and slippery slope. What you believe you're buying to "own", gold or items, you're not really buying as a posession. The item doesn't belong to you, but you've shelled out real money for it. The gold you've paid for doesn't belong to you, just as it didn't belong to the person(s) who sold it to you. The $100 you paid to get the gold DID belong to you.

Good point.
And on a side note: I wish all guru threads were this mature.

Numa Pompilius · Jan 07, 2008, 06:38 PM // 18:38

I don't know, I wouldn't consider buying gold to be CHEATING per se. Cheating to me is using hacks, scripts and exploits - a person who used the guildhall glitch to transfer his minipet to pre-searing would to me be a cheater, but someone who buys gold to deck out his avatar in the most expensive gear isn't a cheater.

The person who buys gold is, on the other hand, an idiot who doesn't understand the concept of "game", that the fundamental idea is to have fun while doing, but to me he's not cheating.
The only ones who have a reason to be upset about gold-buying is the publisher of the game, as they're not getting a piece of the action even though it's their intellectual property.

Personally I feel reading guildwiki while playing through the game the first time is far worse, and even those are more idiots than cheats, as they're only screwing themselves out of the fun of exploring and problem-solving (and then complain that PvE is boring).

Ekelon · Jan 07, 2008, 06:44 PM // 18:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Numa Pompilius

Personally I feel reading guildwiki while playing through the game the first time is far worse, and even those are more idiots than cheats, as they're only screwing themselves out of the fun of exploring and problem-solving (and then complain that PvE is boring).

For some people, they like playing a video game as the're watching a movie. Everything is basically pre-scripted like a movie by reading a guide. Because that exact thing will happen. I guess they find joy in watching their character do stuff automatically pretty much.

Fril Estelin · Jan 07, 2008, 07:18 PM // 19:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by aapo

- I hope you do realize (I doubt it) that RMT does nothing to "economy". If someone (anyone) gets gold pieces from monster drops that gold stays in game until he spends it. RMT is transferring money from character to character, a bit like you can trade items between your characters via storage. Is storage in your opinion damaging the economy?

Yes it does and I hope to definitely make that clear to everyone now, so that we don't have to discuss it anymore. Let me put you the equations this way (note: this is waht I think happens, I've got no inside knowledge, it's all from what I've gathered so far):

Anet decided the drop algorithm and rates based on the content that they created, i.e., missions, quests, armors, weapons and other things. So it's fair to everyone ... as long as you play the game. Bots do not play the game (as in "following the storyline", they only do what's necessary to go where they need to go), they massively farm with only one objective: amass huge amount of money while minimising the amount of resources (time, computer) invested. Because of this, a lot more money is created for them, which they transfer to other players for money. So far, I'm only describing the situation and it may look innocent. But the problem lies when these RMT buyers suddenly get huge amounts of money and spend it on items that other players farm while playing the game, like ectos. The suppliers then sell very quickly at good prices to these RMT buyers, but they also ask the same good prices (they're not going to change their price based on the person) to other players that don't RMT. So these players have to work harder to get these ectos and are thus affected, because the price they pay for their ecto is directly influenced by RMT.

Quote:

Bill has 5 apples. He gives them to Sue. Sue gives the apples to Bob. Bob gives them to Mary. I guess there's 20 apples worth of economy-damaging trade going on! Can you people please think these for yourself before making idiotic posts? That 500K example is nothing more than illustration what happens if person buys 100 globs of ecto at 5K each.

Here is where the sophism in your story lies. Your comparison with the GW situation is biaised because you confuse some elements:, Bill does not "have" the 5 apples/ectos, he either worked hard to get them (if he's not RMT), used a bot to get them for him (if he's an RMT seller) or paid money for them (he's an RMT buyer). In real-life you'd be the 1st or 3nd Bill, the situation of the 2nd Bill is more the problem in MMOs. At the end of the chain, Mary may not "look" affected by how Bill got his apple, but she in fact is, because Bill's method will influence the economy and drive the price she pays (yeah, your story of "giving" would be nice, but that's not what we're discussing here).

Fril Estelin · Jan 07, 2008, 07:23 PM // 19:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ekelon

Yea, that's pretty much why I consider RMT to not be cheating. People can spend their own money and as long as it doesn't disrupt the state of the game's economy it's fine. Botting is something else, though.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Numa Pompilius

I don't know, I wouldn't consider buying gold to be CHEATING per se. Cheating to me is using hacks, scripts and exploits - a person who used the guildhall glitch to transfer his minipet to pre-searing would to me be a cheater, but someone who buys gold to deck out his avatar in the most expensive gear isn't a cheater.

So what do you think of my explanation of why RMT is a cheat in the previous post I wrote? (I don't want to focus on RMT in this thread, but I guess that if it's the main point of discussion of everyone, that's what we'll discuss)

P.S. to Numa Pompilius: the word "idiot" clearly is a judgment which highlights the moral dimension of the notion of "cheating" (not in the best way in my opinion, but I get your point). Let's not go this way in this thread, as it'll very quickly become a flame-fest with accusations flying around, and this is totally counter-productive.

Thorondor Port · Jan 07, 2008, 09:30 PM // 21:30

If you are married and you sleep with someone other than the one you married.

Numa Pompilius · Jan 07, 2008, 09:43 PM // 21:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fril Estelin

So what do you think of my explanation of why RMT is a cheat in the previous post I wrote?

Well... It is annoying to Sue that Bob gets 200 plat without effort, when Sue has to play the game for weeks to get five, but is it cheating?

I suppose an argument can be made that it's cheating because it violates the EULA, but on the other hand it doesn't impact other players - at least in Guild Wars the items Bob can buy for his plat doesn't give him any appreciable in-game edge. To me cheating is obtaining unfair advantage in the game, and hence I have a hard time seeing it as cheating.

I realize that my view is somewhat inconsistent - in games like WoW Bob could buy himself an edge over users who have not bought gold, making it clear-cut cheating.

The effect on economy, however, seems irrelevant to me. The bots flood the market with both items and gold, leading to mudflation (when Guild Wars was new, even purple weapons were sellable and no item at all cost over 100K; today only a small proportion of perfect gold weapons are sellable, and there are items with a value over 1M, ie gold has become less worth but so have most items).

However, the guild wars economy could nosedive into hypermudflation due to botting all it wants, and it will not affect my gaming as long as the prices of core services are not affected. The state of the economy matter to people who trade with other players, something I do only indirectly, through the traders.

Quote:

P.S. to Numa Pompilius: the word "idiot" clearly is a judgment which highlights the moral dimension of the notion of "cheating" (not in the best way in my opinion, but I get your point). Let's not go this way in this thread

Fair enough.
I consider them stupid, because what they do is robbing themselves out of content and enjoyment they've already paid for, and for no reason. Playing-by-wiki the first time through the game show a profound lack of understanding of what gaming is all about, while buying gold is irrational because it equals destroying real-world money for no gain (even in-game gain).

strcpy · Jan 07, 2008, 11:13 PM // 23:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fril Estelin

What is "fair" in your mind?

That was mostly what the rest of the post was trying to define - basically anything that creates an unleveled playing field.

Quote:

I'm more interested in the situation that are not obvious (well it's subjective of course, depending on how much you know about these things).

To me, it either creates a situation where one has an advantage over another or not, there is no "not obvious". What may not be obvious is if it is worth a ban - for instance purchasing you way to Treasure Hunter or max allegiance rank. It does confer some level of an unbalanced field however it is fairly slight. Cheating? Yes, worthy of a ban, probably not.

Quote:

Interesting point! Even if GW is not a pure MMO, we're all in the same economy, so RMT and farming influences all, to a more or less important extent depending on how much you value your stuff (15k armor is nice to have in HoM).

I'm not so worried about prestige items as much I would be for things that would be game breaking - runes and materials for you 1k armors. If you were around for the early days of UW farming you will know they type of inflation I am talking about (though that wasn't cheating simply because it was a legitimate in game tactic, but it is why things were changed).

Quote:

I'm wondering (it's a question) whether you can actually ignore the influence that your actions have on the whole community. By FFF-ing the easy way, you push your guild ahead of others, is it fair to the guilds that work the hard way?

That is an in game mechanic that is obviously somewhat supported by Anet, not even an exploit. That is VERY different from cheating - I would call it "cheap". It does very much devalue some achievements but then so do consumables and many of the PvE only skills and I don't think we can call using them "cheating" (well, some can, but lets be realistic here).

I perfectly understand the sense of personal achievement, and I think that their behaviour would show values that would attract people with the same values (idem for the FFFers). But then there's the point when guilds are ranked and compared, and people male opinions not on first-hand experience with players and guilds, but "hear say" which work differently.

Quote:

(I don't understand the "chicken or beef" point in English, would you care to explain?)

The point being you have to choose one and there isn't that much difference between them. That is, no matter your choice you are going to ruin the fun of someone as many find making other people miserable "fun". From simply the standpoint of "cheating is ruining someone's fun" you can never win as you will always do that.

Quote:

Totally agree. But I didn't want to put this definition because it's so difficult to know what people feel (I don't know if you remember this thread on the GMC textmod, you'd have the 2 extremes of people wanting it banned and people wanting it as a normal feature in the game) and this leads to flaming.

I don't really see things as that squishy, I don't really care what you intentions are either. It's generally not that hard to figure if what you are doing is outside of the system *and* creating an unleveled playing field - if so then you are cheating. Where it does get fuzzy if what to do about it (and of course, that is also fuzzy when it is something that isn't outside the system. Say Texmod or HFFF - but at least everyone can do something that the system is designed to handle which levels the field by a good amount).

Personally I find it best to go hard on anything you don't want in an online game otherwise it can easily get out of hand.

Old Man Of Ascalon · Jan 08, 2008, 12:48 AM // 00:48

I do not consider buying gold to be a cheat at all. Basically all you are doing is paying someone to do something you cannot or will not. No different in my eyes than someone buying a green item in game that they could not or would not farm themselves.

Personally, I do not even see why most GW players even care, the economy for the most part is a set one, with very few things sold from NPC's varying in price and everything else in game can be gotten through drops or through player trading routes. Someone who is buying gold is merely paying real money for someone to go farm all this gold for them, so that they can buy things that other people have farmed, who in turn, take the money they got from the person who bought the gold and go and spend it on something someone else farmed.

It all comes down to the principle, how can I get the most wealth with the least amount of effort. Someone who has for instance, figured out how to a Shards of Orr run, has found an easier faster way to make 80-100k than to go out and farm enemies for it. Someone who has figured out how to do Droks runs have found an easier way to make 10-20k than to kill enemies for it. I'd say that if anything, buy gold stimulates the economy because it makes it possible for these people who have actually worked to gain items, or figure out how to run or provide a service of some sort to get customers and in turn get money to spend on other services or goods that other people have worked for.

Even if all the sudden all the bot farming, chinese gold farming and all the other sources of RLT gold stopped, what would be the benefit? An extra 20-30 gold per drop? 100g per drop? Platinum bars falling from the sky for all to grab? No, none of the above. You would merely see the prices of certain goods, traded by players drop, but since inflation had dropped, it would require the same amount of effort to obtain.

Some might say "Well, prestige armor and weapons and such would be more prestigious if not everyone could afford them." But really all that would accomplish is that people would say "Wow, that guys wearing 15k armor, must of took him ages to farm the gold for that, what a loser". Real prestigious.

But all that aside, whats the point of even bothering? It's a game. If someone wants to spend all there time farming gold so that they can sell it and not be able to enjoy the game in the least....so be it, their loss. If someone has extra real life money to spend on digital numbers and not have the experience of earning it, so be it, their loss. Either way, it is and will always be a game and in the end it does not matter. Let people do what people want to do, no matter what some people want the rules to be or what they think is acceptable, someone else will always disagree and people will go on doing exactly what people want to do. Some will be caught, some won't and there is nothing any of us can do about it other than report them (if you see fit to do so, not reporting is cool too, it's your right as a free person).

Sha Noran · Jan 08, 2008, 12:57 AM // 00:57

It's technically not cheating if you rub peanut butter on your... oh, wait.

Avarre · Jan 08, 2008, 02:38 AM // 02:38

Buying gold isn't cheating. If you have a job, it's even logical because who would want to farm 1000k in-game if you can make it in a fraction of that time with real money? It's just arranging for a transfer of gold already in the game. That's a different issue, to me, than creating gold by duping.

In the end, buying gold doesn't get you any further than the guy who farmed.

Malice Black · Jan 08, 2008, 02:41 AM // 02:41

What is cheating?

It's only cheating IF you get caught.

As my old man would say "It's only illegal if you get caught"

Xsikotic · Feb 01, 2008, 07:51 PM // 19:51

This is my simple view of it.

I thinks its all a matter of character. If your willing to blow real life money just so you can have this uber-luxury stuff in GW, have fun, but personally, when I see a character in town with obsidian, chaos gloves, some kind of eotn headgear, a god-like mini, but a title with obviously no skill (high wisdom seeker title), that character simply screams "I BOUGHT ALL MY GOLD!", and I simply laugh to myself to how ridiculous that person is. If your going to play GW just so you can just sit in town and look pretty, then I feel sorry for you, and no amount of in game gold can solve the problem that you've exposed how crappy of a real life person in life, and that you took the easy way out.

Personally, I've been playing this game for almost 2 years now. I have never been handed anything from anybody. Today, I am the proud owner of a character with 14 maxed titles, half an obsidian armor, chaos gloves, a torment weapon, and a mini mallyx. I definitly don't consider myself rich. All I've done was play through the game with as much intelligence ans strategy as I could master. I farmed and used my time wisely (unlike people who sit in town begging or trying to sell worthless crap for ridiculous amounts of money). I played maybe 5 hours a week, played somewhat more when my friends got into it or when I had time off.

Point is, I had so much fun doing everything I did. I never farmed if it was boring. I was stimulated to invent new things to do in order to progress. I never farmed something if it was boring or grinding. I tried new things out, most failed, but some were successful.

Back to subject oO (sorry for going off on tangent). In a way, buying gold is cheating. Maybe it doent give you a extra edge, but it does make regular players completely unable to obtain certain items. When I see ghostly hero minis selling in kamada for 7500 ectos. A player that plays GW like a game should be played; with moderation, its in my opinion absolutelly unable to gather even a fractions of that money. Even something worth anything above 200 ectos is unatainable to most players. So here's the final and undeniable answer: there are 2 markets in GW; one for the ones that earn money, and one for the people that buy money, and ill leave it at that. I have too many good things going on in my life to waste money on in-game gold just so I can look pretty in town. Take that $100 you were gonna use to buy a mini and take your girlfriend/ wife out to dinner, but then again, a lot of these people are too busy pimping out their character that they might have forgotten what real life was, or how good it felt to look good in there too.

So peace out guys, and remember: life > video games, and if you disagree, that's a whole other debate that I can win.

-the actual one and only Xsikotic

N1ghtstalker · Feb 01, 2008, 07:55 PM // 19:55

think about special scripts that can make your mesmer interupt monks casting something like reversal of fortune with power spike without any stuff that makes casting time longer
that's cheating
or use of bots..

pumpkin pie · Feb 01, 2008, 08:08 PM // 20:08

I think buying gold is cheating
I think using texmod is cheating
I think checking wiki for mission how-to is cheating (its a walk through)

buying gold with real life money above all is the worst, because not only do you cheat yourself, you are supporting the people who "steal" other people stuff and sell them. yes, selling "digital things" that programmers/game developer make and agreeing to not violate the EULA, then turns around and sell the ingame item is consider stealing. and is an offence.

Xsikotic · Feb 01, 2008, 08:18 PM // 20:18

Buying gold isn't cheating, its just compensation for your lazyness or lack of skill. If someone buys gold, they are making their character awesome, but at the same time showing how pathetic and squishy their real life character is.

Malice Black · Feb 01, 2008, 08:20 PM // 20:20

MUD?

Buying gold gives you no advantages over anyone else, so people are just wasting cash to look pretty. You could compare a modern day suburban person to someone who buys gold.

anonymous · Feb 01, 2008, 08:41 PM // 20:41

If ANet says buying gold is a bannable offense, then it is cheating. Cheating is breaking the rules, if the rule makers say you can't do it and you do, thats cheating.

N1ghtstalker · Feb 01, 2008, 08:56 PM // 20:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by pumpkin pie

I think buying gold is cheating
I think using texmod is cheating
I think checking wiki for mission how-to is cheating (its a walk through)

buying gold with real life money above all is the worst, because not only do you cheat yourself, you are supporting the people who "steal" other people stuff and sell them. yes, selling "digital things" that programmers/game developer make and agreeing to not violate the EULA, then turns around and sell the ingame item is consider stealing. and is an offence.

i dissagree with the last one and others will probably too
if you're stuck on a mission you can look on for info for the mission
it's not really a cheat
you only know what to do but you still have to do all the killing yourself
it's like a GTA: you can look how to do missions, but from the second you start using the health bonus codes it's real cheating
using a walkthrough isn't real cheating
you can call runners to droks 'n stuff cheating too then

Fril Estelin · Jun 17, 2008, 10:24 AM // 10:24

Rather than start a new thread on the topic, I'll thread-res my thread and post two very interesting articles here, people will also be able to (re-)read the whole thread:

http://www.therunescapeblog.com/2008...the-dark-side/
Runescape’s Cheating Scene: Welcome to The Dark Side

http://kotaku.com/5016502/one-wow-ga...powerlevelling
One WoW Gamer's Descent into Powerlevelling